Обсуждение:Хорватско-боснийский конфликт
37.52.208.205 17:56, 21 мая 2012 (UTC)iltg какая вышла интересная статья о военном конфликте! читая ее невозможно понять, что ж там происходило на поле боя - ну и ладно, статья то о военном конфликте, а значит о ходе боевых действий писать нефиг, да?
Hello Kobac. Just one correction. In the table Противники, you wrote that on Bosnian side there was Мусульманские добровольцы / моджахеды. I think you made a mistake, lapsus lingue, because in English Wikipedia it is not that paramilitary unit, but HOS - Croatian Defence Forces. Both paramilitary units had similar flag, black flag. HOS was a Croat militia but with different ideology than Croatian Army. On the other hand Muslim volunteers, didn't participate in this war much, mostly they were fighting with Serb Army between Tuzla and Zenica. Regards, Just a reader... — Эта реплика добавлена с IP 85.158.38.108 (о) 21:28, 3 мая 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for explanations.
I've just cleaned the info about mujahideen.I did not write about the HOS, because (as I have understood) they are only planned to participate in this war, but were not in time that their commander has been killed by HVO.
- Did you know anything about the the Serbian participation in this war? One anonymous user from Republika Srpska has made such editings. Is he right? Kobac 22:04, 3 мая 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, but it's not a mistake.
The foreign Mujahedin differed considerably from the local population, not only because of their physical appearance and the language they spoke, but also because of their fighting methods. Initially, the foreign Mujahedin gave food and other basic necessities to the local Muslim population. Once hostilities broke out between the ABiH and the HVO, they also participated in battles against the HVO alongside ABiH units.
— ICTY: Hadžihasanović & Kubura Case Information Sheet (PDF, 284.5 КБ) (англ.)
- I am aware there were probably some battles where foreign Muslim volunteers participated, but not on the scale relevant to be a side in the war ie belligerent as it is defined in English. Btw, it was just a unit consisted of a few hundred men. The same thing is for Serbian Army which helped Croat forces no doubt, but Serb Army shouldn't be considered as belligerent/side in the war. The main sides in the Croat-Bosniak war were Croatian Defence Council and Croatian Army on one side, and Bosnian Army and HOS on other side. HOS is important because they were the first target by Croatian Defence Council and Croatian Army, they didn't participated in the battles, but their defeat by Croatian Council defined this war. And they were defeated in a very original way. HVO killed the main staff of HOS, and the game was over. — Эта реплика добавлена с IP 85.158.34.179 (о) 21:26, 7 мая 2010 (UTC)
- OK, I've understood you. The matter is that there is a tradtion in Russian Wiki (or so it seems to me) to specify all belligerents including minorities. For example, you can see Russian version of article about the Bosnian war. If this is the wrong approach – we must correct all other articles about conflicts in the former SFRJ.
- But you've convinced me that it's necessary to add the info about the HOS and Kraljević. (It has been written in article earlier, but not in infobox).
- Also if I have correctly understood, you are from Sarajevo, aren't you? Tell me, please, when the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina has stopped the existence precisely? In materials in Russian there is very serious mess: somewhere written that right after Dayton (in the end of 1995), somewhere – that in 1996 or 1997. Can you help me?
- Kobac 19:27, 8 мая 2010 (UTC)
- Yes I am from Sarajevo. The Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was switched with Bosnia and Herzegovina (without Republic prefix) in December 14, 1995, when Dayton was officially verified in Paris, although its status in international relations was never changed, Bosnian just continued its life, but with different internal organization. Regarding the question of belligerents in the war, I understand that Russian Wiki has different style, that's ok, but generally that kind of details in my opinion is not clear for reading. For example, in that case you have so many paramilitary units, that can be added on both sides, it would be really difficult for readers to understand it at first reading. Russians also participated as volunteers on Serbian side, neo-nazi units from Germany on Croatian side, you have interesting article about it in English Wikipedia: [1]. In Srebrenica Genocide, Greek volunteer unit participated [2]. I will never understand why Russians supported Karadjordjevo agreement and Croatian and Serbian deal to destroy Bosnia. I mean during the siege of Sarajevo, when some Russian poets like Limonov were shoting on Sarajevo civilians with Radovan Karadzic, we were reading Russian literature in shelters - Tolstoy, Dostojevski, Puskin, we enjoyed it, we still do, we loved so much Russians, and they always supported Serb leaders, even the same propaganda. There are many examples here [3], and here [4]. So I really don't believe that my comment will change anything, I just left it, because I saw for the first time that someone decided to translate much of the article from English Wiki which is closest to the truth then any other Wiki, because they use much of international tribunal documentations - neutral, verified facts from the trials. Best wishes from Sarajevo...
Ну, и для тех, кто не верит в участие сербов… править
722. Han Plo~a and Grahovci are associated villages which also lie to the south of Kiseljak on the way to Sarajevo, not far from Tulica. Shortly after the attack on Tulica they were also subject to attack by the HVO. The prosecution evidence was that the HVO issued an ultimatum to the Muslims to surrender their weapons. After the ultimatum expired, the village was shelled by the HVO and the BSA, and houses were set on fire. An HVO infantry attack followed. Having come into the village, HVO soldiers lined up three Muslim men against a wall and shot them. They also killed some other men and set fire to a garage with people in it. The women and children were then taken to the Kiseljak barracks. One witness said that his sister (aged 15), father and grandmother were all killed and that in all 64 people were killed during the attack or after their capture.
— ICTY: Dario Kordić and Mario Čerkez judgement (PDF, 3.17 МБ) (англ.)
BSA — это Bosnian Serb Army (если кому непонятно). Kobac 22:54, 3 мая 2010 (UTC)